[cjakeman]

I asked this question in a technical thread, but I thought it deserves a thread to itself.

At the core of our Project Team sit the developers who achieve wonders in bringing our Wish List to life.

From some posts in the forums it's clear that we, both Project Team and supporters, would like to tackle our roadmap a bit faster. So how do you think we could best encourage/enlarge/develop/support our Development Team?

[cjakeman]

cjakeman, on 22 April 2017 - 04:30 AM, said:

So how do you think we could best encourage/enlarge/develop/support our Development Team?

No immediate responses, so I'll think aloud some more.

We can look at this 3 ways:

• more developers
• more productivity (i.e. achieving more for less effort)
• more skill (programming is complex and there's always more to learn)

and perhaps start with the first - more developers. The public SVN log shows when people committed code - the last 12 months list 11: James, Carlo, Peter, Robert, Rob, Serana, Edward, Chris, StrawberryField, Jeroen, Jijun

How then can we attract more, keep the ones we have and bring back those that have not been active?

Or to frame it as a more personal question, "How did you get involved in Open Rails? What can we learn from your experience?"

[Lindsayts]

Some thoughts on the topic...................

A problem with a train sim is its an example of "technical" programming, you not only need to be able to program well in the language concerned one MUST be master on the particular subject. Railway simulation needs a VERY wide technical knowledge base, people with the combination of decent programming skills and th required knowledge are a VERY rare species.

The windows world is NOT widely known for support of open source, most people that are willing to donate there time for the good of the rest of the world are already deep in Linux, where this sort of thing is highly valued.

Actually trying to work out how other peoples code is a VERY DIFFICULT task particularly on e a technical program like OR, This has not been helped in the past by OR having a preference for few comments in the source., makes sorting out things like steam engine and signalling code EXTREMELY tough to figure out. Wht should be being done is in such source before any function there should be an plan language description of what the function is doing in the overall scheme of the code.

The next is NOT MEANT TO BE A SHOT AT THE CURRENT DEVLOPERS, but I firmly believe it significant. OpenRails is being to some extent treated as a toy as its INCOMPLETE, there being no route editor and there is apparently little desire ever to do one. Almost all MSTS content developers in Australia have given up on MSTS/OR as MSTS's tools no longer run properly on the latest version of windows. So they have gone to other pastures. While Openrails is an excellent train simulator there are a great many out there that wish to be able to build a route. This section of the community is being completely shut out by OR. Goku's is battling on apparently totatlly on his own, this IS letting the whole OR side down.

LIndsay

[Lindsayts]

One thing I would like to make completely clear is I believe OR development is doing OK, A train sim, is very much a specialist program with limited appeal to the general public and Openrails itself is a this stage only a small part of this specialist field.

Lindsay

[cjakeman]

Thanks, Lindsay, for starting the discussion moving.

Lindsayts, on 23 April 2017 - 02:09 AM, said:

A problem with a train sim is its an example of "technical" programming, you not only need to be able to program well in the language concerned one MUST be master on the particular subject. Railway simulation needs a VERY wide technical knowledge base, people with the combination of decent programming skills and the required knowledge are a VERY rare species.

Yes, indeed. But joining this forum and then the project has been a major learning experience. I thought I was fairly knowledgeable on rail matters, but I've learned so much by taking part in the last 5 years. My thought is that we can help interested programmers learn the demands of rail simulation and we can help the rail guys with programming. I've been able to help some here with their programming and there must be ways to make that easier too.

Lindsayts, on 23 April 2017 - 02:09 AM, said:

The Windows world is NOT widely known for support of open source, most people that are willing to donate there time for the good of the rest of the world are already deep in Linux, where this sort of thing is highly valued.

You're right about Windows and Linux. I've found a few places which try to put potential contributors in touch with open source projects. I've added our project to Open Hatch.org and, as soon as I have some "first-timers-only" tasks ready, will do the same for Up-For-Grabs.net.

The place where most people to work on open source projects is GitHub. CodeTriage.com has a directory of these. James is keen to move from SVN to Git now that v1.2 has been released, so we could be on there soon.

Of course, I'd be keen to learn of other places we could register our project.


But to come back to getting coders (professional or amateur) involved, my question is still awaiting some responses !

"How did you get involved in Open Rails? What can we learn from your experience?"

[James Ross]

cjakeman, on 22 April 2017 - 04:30 AM, said:

From some posts in the forums it's clear that we, both Project Team and supporters, would like to tackle our roadmap a bit faster. So how do you think we could best encourage/enlarge/develop/support our Development Team?

Top of my priority list at the moment is getting the Git migration ready to try again, as I believe that this will allow:

• More accessible source code: we can have the code on Launchpad and GitHub (and other places, as it makes sense) without issue
  
• Easier to contribute: esp. on GitHub but also on Launchpad it is easy to share your own "fork" (modified version) of the code and, importantly, for us to merge that back into the main version if desired
  
• Easier to develop with: many tools, like Visual Studio, include Git support built right in, providing better integration and easier use
  
• Easier to integrate work: we can take people's work (with permission), modify it if needed (e.g. to better fit the OR style, or add comments, or whatever) and merge it into the main version without any loss of attribution or history

Lindsayts, on 23 April 2017 - 02:09 AM, said:

OpenRails is being to some extent treated as a toy as its INCOMPLETE, there being no route editor and there is apparently little desire ever to do one.

The problem seems to be more a lack of developers willing to take on the work, than desire. We're had the desire for years!

cjakeman, on 24 April 2017 - 08:05 AM, said:

I've found a few places which try to put potential contributors in touch with open source projects. I've added our project to Open Hatch.org and, as soon as I have some "first-timers-only" tasks ready, will do the same for Up-For-Grabs.net.

Excellent! I've come across the second site before, but not the first, I don't think.

cjakeman, on 24 April 2017 - 08:05 AM, said:

The place where most people to work on open source projects is GitHub. CodeTriage.com has a directory of these. James is keen to move from SVN to Git now that v1.2 has been released, so we could be on there soon.

I think the downside for CodeTriage is that we have to use GitHub issues for bug tracking, which is definitely not part of the Git migration proposal. It may be something we do later, however.

cjakeman, on 24 April 2017 - 08:05 AM, said:

"How did you get involved in Open Rails? What can we learn from your experience?"

I don't remember the details of how I found the project, but I got in touch via the website IIRC, and someone (possibly Wayne?) suggested some existing bugs for me to work on, and that was that.

I've tried to make it easy for existing developers to pick up work with the roadmap, but we don't have anything tailored to interested/new people really - so I hope we can get something out of Open Hatch, or Up-for-Grabs.

[edwardk]

cjakeman, on 23 April 2017 - 12:15 AM, said:

No immediate responses, so I'll think aloud some more.

We can look at this 3 ways:

• more developers
• more productivity (i.e. achieving more for less effort)
• more skill (programming is complex and there's always more to learn)

and perhaps start with the first - more developers. The public SVN log shows when people committed code - the last 12 months list 11: James, Carlo, Peter, Robert, Rob, Serana, Edward, Chris, StrawberryField, Jeroen, Jijun

How then can we attract more, keep the ones we have and bring back those that have not been active?

Or to frame it as a more personal question, "How did you get involved in Open Rails? What can we learn from your experience?"

Hi Chris,

All 3 ideas are good, but its the first and 3rd that are the most important. The nature of open source programming for this type of project requires a strong dedication since personal time is needed to figure out where you can contribute along with determining how your contribution is to be done. I read an article under Dice.com concerning the participation in open source projects. For some reason, many developers shy away from these type of projects.

The third idea is important since there is always something to learn. The only issue is where you stand regarding current knowledge. When it comes to simulation development, there is more to know then
just knowing how to write good C# code. There is a need to have enough knowledge in advanced math (Computer Science math)which in my case is lacking. I can learn, but I have to push myself to learn it since it seems I forget it as fast as I learn it.

The second idea may not apply for this type of project. In my opinion, increasing productivity via efficiency sounds as if its close to cutting corners. Keep in mind the "time needed" that I mentioned above. There are people who have the gift/talent such as Goku.


In summary, we must find a way to attract more people.


Edward K.

[Goku]

There is no new developers, because no one is intrested in old MSTS S.HIT. Open Rails had to go forward, made some amazing new things etc. But some important users didn't wanted this direction for OR. And now we see the results.

[Genma Saotome]

Having been involved at the very beginning and having observed for many years it always appeared to me that no real effort was ever given to engage new volunteers. Sure, there were a few hardy individuals who were confident enough to jump in feet first and figure things out but for the rest it always looked like guidance was limited to "pick something and figure it out".

Process determines results. You've had, what, 100-120 people come and go with perhaps 75% contributing nothing at all? How many had an assigned mentor? How many left word as to why they were backing out? If not, why wasn't that later reason known and acted upon? To me that says loudly, not a good process. And yes, chaos is a process.

You should have a project-noob-adjustment process in-hand, a list of trivial bugs to use as a getting to know your way around the environment tasks. Each new person should have an assigned mentor who can be contacted and provide some guidance. Everybody who comes in should be told if you decide to go away, please, tell us why so if we screwed up we can make any necessary adjustments.

In short, in may be a 100% voluntary effort but that doesn't remove the need to manage new people until such time they can work on their own, something everyone can play a part in, even a very small part. All you need is some idea of what you can and will do -- the process.

[Lindsayts]

Goku, on 24 April 2017 - 02:56 PM, said:

There is no new developers, because no one is intrested in old MSTS S.HIT. Open Rails had to go forward, made some amazing new things etc. But some important users didn't wanted this direction for OR. And now we see the results.

Its not clear what you are getting at here, A train sim is a train sim, I think you will find nearly all long term train sim users will be people dedicated to railways and some percentage of these are real railway people and they will have a strong leaning to accurate behaviour and its unlikely that compromising accurate performance for flashier graphics will have ANY positive effect on most of these users.

The only direction OR has not really gone in is route development, its possible this is what you reffering to, if that is the case I certainly agree that it is quite a serious weakness.

Lindsay