[thegrindre]

Traindude, on 10 August 2017 - 09:12 PM, said:

Sorry to bump this thread but here's another effect worth simulating that's along the lines of this topic: Smoke from a caboose or brake van.

Virtually all cabooses (brake vans in the UK) had wood or coal-fired stoves to keep the conductor/guard warm on a cold winter night. Adding the functionality of a stove-smoke emitter for rolling stock allows the effect to be added without making the caboose an "engine." Similarly, 19th-century passenger cars made before steam heat was introduced could also have the stove emitter function.

BOY! I'm all for this idea. http://www.elvastower.com/forums/public/style_emoticons/default/good.gif Would love to see this implemented. http://www.elvastower.com/forums/public/style_emoticons/default/sign_rockon.gif

http://www.elvastower.com/forums/public/style_emoticons/default/oldstry.gif

[jared2982]

One other idea would be steam emitted from the dynamo on steam engines. Electricity for those headlights has to com from somewhere.

[steamer_ctn]

jared2982, on 11 August 2017 - 04:21 AM, said:

One other idea would be steam emitted from the dynamo on steam engines. Electricity for those headlights has to com from somewhere.

This is already catered for. See the manual, or this site.

[jared2982]

steamer_ctn, on 11 August 2017 - 01:14 PM, said:

This is already catered for. See the manual, or this site.

Ah, so it is. Thank you I must have missed this at some point.

[Mike B]

SP 0-6-0, on 30 June 2017 - 10:44 AM, said:

Peter, I will get back to you on the HEP generator information. I've got to look through my documents and gather up the info.

HEP Head End Power is of a couple different setups, In the early years this would have been oversized steam driven turbo generators equipped to steam locomotives in commuter service. Ex, CNW pacifics used on the Chicago area commuter lines. The DC Voltage was used for the car lighting systems since the cars sat still for 20 out of every 24 hours. Also the frequent stops did not allow for adquate battery charging. When diesels came along the DC came from the main generator or from a smaller auxilliary generator.

The modern HEP setup is 3 phase AC either generated from the main diesel engine that also turns the traction generator or from a seperate HEP package installed in the locomotive or in a converted passenger or freight car.

The first pioneer in HEP AC generated from the main engine was the Erie Lackawanna ordered GE U34CH. Amtrak ordered it's F40PH after seeing the success of the U34CH which was used in New Jersey commuter service.

On the U34CH this setup needed the main engine to turn at 960RPM to maintain the 60 Hertz AC frequency for the 3Phase AC power. The engine was fed fuel and the main traction alternator would be excited to the nessecary degree but the engine RPM would stay constant. My link

The EMD F40PH worked on a similar bases. These setups worked well but are very hard on the main diesel engine.

Nowadays most locomotives either have a seperate HEP unit or a inverter setup so the main engine can run in a normal fashion and not wide open to maintain line frequency.

Robert

Many F59s (not -PHI) work like F40s for HEP, and they are hard on the ears too. Personal experience, both inside (an end-to-end tour when riding a test train on Caltrain in the 1980s) and out (Metrolink LA as a rider especially at Union Station during the lead-up to commute time when all the tracks fill with waiting trains). F59PHI for Cal Amtrak and others usually has a separate generator for HEP, which is much quieter.

[Traindude]

Another smoke effect I thought of--smoke from ventilators above the dining-car kitchen. This includes not only exhaust from stoves or ovens that burn wood or coal, but also smoke from cooking food that passes through overhead stove vents.

The possibilities are endless.

[jkcooney]

Mike B, on 29 January 2017 - 02:14 PM, said:

Pretty much everything other than electric and diesel MUs in the US and Canada had steam heat until the 1970s, so diesel and electric passenger locomotives needed steam generators (a small, packaged boiler with automatic controls) for train heating. HEP started appearing on some commuter trains in the 1960s, then VIA did it for their whole fleet, then Amtrak did when they started replacing the Heritage cars. Heritage cars were eventually rebuilt with HEP for Amtrak, as they were for Via, which eliminated the need for steam generators on the locomotives. So for passenger trains well into the 1970s or even early 1980s, with Heritage-type cars, a steam-heat effect would be realistic.

Trains were pre-heated in terminals from a boiler in the station before the locomotive coupled up and connected its steam heat line. So steam heat effects (small plumes) at key points around the platforms (typically near the bumper post for stub-end terminals) would also be appropriate.

Effects would include steam leakage from hose joints, valves, and other release points. One interesting use was for cooling (air conditioning) that could be done with a steam ejector. Effects would be outside-temperature sensitive (can we do that in OR?) with stronger effects when cold and practically vanishing in warm weather, but not particularly throttle-sensitive.

Perhaps adding all these details would consume too much memory especially if the train were fairly lengthy.

[jkcooney]

Traindude, on 13 August 2017 - 06:48 PM, said:

Another smoke effect I thought of--smoke from ventilators above the dining-car kitchen. This includes not only exhaust from stoves or ovens that burn wood or coal, but also smoke from cooking food that passes through overhead stove vents.

The possibilities are endless.

The possibilities may be endless but at some point it would seem to me to be pointless. Is the objective to view artifacts and minor details or operate the trains in a realistic way. I guess it depends pretty much on what you want to achieve in this "hobby".... it is (after all) a labor of love.
jc

[ebnertra000]

I do think it would be a bit much if you can hardly see it in any case, but if the prototype looked like a rolling cloud, this definitely would help. I just thought of an effect that this would do well to simulate: the steaming ore effect seen on iron ore trains in Northern Minnesota (See image). I see these regularly during hunting season when it gets cold, especially third weekwnd when it's invariably -10°

[cjakeman]

jkcooney, on 16 August 2017 - 06:15 AM, said:

The possibilities may be endless but at some point it would seem to me to be pointless.

Yes, but if we can provide a general mechanism for smoke/steam exhausting from vehicles, then it's up to the modeller what to focus on. As ebnertra000 shows, there are possibilities we haven't thought of !

[copperpen]

The problem with current steam/smoke emissions is that they are generally displayed as puffs regardless of what the steam is supposed to represent. The puffs are not even in time with the exhaust beats either most of the time.

The main exhaust should really be a continuous stream of thin smoke when at rest with a continuous wisp of steam to represent the blower when used. This stream should then be bolstered by the main cylinder exhausts for 2 3 or 4 cylinders. Cylinder cocks when open issue a very fast expanding steady stream that alternates between cylinder ends. Ancillaries such as turbo generators and injectors also emit a steady stream of steam, no puffs. The only item that puffs other than the engine cylinders is the air pump that also has a double cylinder.

[jared2982]

copperpen, on 16 August 2017 - 12:09 PM, said:

The problem with current steam/smoke emissions is that they are generally displayed as puffs regardless of what the steam is supposed to represent. The puffs are not even in time with the exhaust beats either most of the time.

The main exhaust should really be a continuous stream of thin smoke when at rest with a continuous wisp of steam to represent the blower when used. This stream should then be bolstered by the main cylinder exhausts for 2 3 or 4 cylinders. Cylinder cocks when open issue a very fast expanding steady stream that alternates between cylinder ends. Ancillaries such as turbo generators and injectors also emit a steady stream of steam, no puffs. The only item that puffs other than the engine cylinders is the air pump that also has a double cylinder.

This is a very good explanation of how steam exhaust should work. I hope someone takes notice that has the knowledge to work on it.

[steamer_ctn]

In #3937 some of the suggestions offered in this thread have been added to the latest update of the steam effects.

i) Steam heating boiler (shown as the third exhaust on the locomotive) has been lightened up.
ii) HEP generator has been added, as well as a "wood smoke" effect, as shown on the third wagon.

Some concerns have been raised about the smoke coming in "puffs". This appears to be as a result of the way the particle emitter attempts to draw the smoke effect. It appears to be exacerbated when non-black smoke is used. Unfortunately the particle drawer is very much a mystery to me so I suspect that I will not have the expertise to modify it.

As a result of some overlaps in code some configuration changes were necessary for the ENG and WAG file configurations.

To implement the effects as shown in the attached screenshot the following type of code needs to be added to the WAG section of the cars:

Effects (
    	SpecialEffects (

Comment ( == Steam Heating Hose Leak == )  
   	HeatingHoseFX (
				0.0 0.6 -11.64
					0 -1 0
					0.1
			)

Comment ( == Wagon Generator Smoke == )			
   	WagonGeneratorFX (
				0.0 4.66 9.19
					0 1 0
					0.1
					
			)			

Comment ( == Wagon Smoke == )             	
   	WagonSmokeFX (
				0.0 4.66 7.19
					0 1 0
					0.2	
   		
  	)
   )
 )   

I believe that these types of effects provide all the "relevant" ones worth modelling.

I am wondering whether it is worth while adding relevant coding to adjust the car / locomotive wagon physics as the weight of the car changes due to fuel and/or water consumption. Based upon some info that I have found a steam boiler might use 150 gallons (uk) of water an hour, and 15.5 gallons (uk) of diesel.

The other aspect is that the effects are currently "permanently" on, and maybe there needs to be a means to turn them on and off.

Thus to finish off these features, I would like to establish a small ad-hoc test team who have an interest in using these features to work with me to develop and test a few simple scenarios were these features might be used.

If you are interested please let me know.

Attached thumbnail(s)

• 

[SP 0-6-0]

There are definitely situations that would call for cutting of the HEP supply as it subtracts a substantial amount of power from the diesel locomotives main engine when talking about older HEP units. Amtrak has to cut the HEP sometimes to make Cuesta Grade for instance.

It would be very worth while to model the physics effects on the locomotives so equipped. Whether it be the loss of traction when the water tanks on a EMD F7 or E8 are getting low or the additional loss of fuel oil in the tanks as the steam boiler is burning for smaller Alco and EMD switchers with small fuel tanks.

Further there should be a connection between the control and firing of the steam generator and the effects on the steam heating of passenger cars since this feature already exists.

For HEP there needs to be the physics of the shaft driven AC alternator coupled to the diesel engine and the effects on available power for traction to pull the train.

Also there should be the option of having a locomotive have HEP failure and the cars go dark. Further there should be a system to control the HEP and have it control the lighting and Heat/AC on the passenger cars.

The loco whether supplying steam heat or HEP should have control of the steam heat/HEP on the passenger cars bottom line.

Next and this is just as important. For HEP there needs to be the connection between the HEP and it's different modes and resulting affects on the locomotives sounds. For older units the engine has to rev at near or at full RPM. There is a very real difference between a engine running at full power and a generator pulling a full load and running at full power in the sounds of the engine unit.

Lastly. As on the Erie Lackawanna NJT transit U34CH there is a selector switch for different modes. Can different states be modeled to reflect this?

I can get more specific about how this works if needs to be. It was covered in the first two links of the video I put up about these mighty GE U34CH units. There setup is very similar to HEP on most GE and EMD units of the time.

Can the code account for both exhaust from the steam boiler and the steam release and blow off valves?

I would personally like to see the ability to control both steam heat and HEP from the cab. This would make for some very interesting activity possibilities for both US and UK trains from the 1930's to the 1990's. The firemen on diesels back in the day had the primary job of tending to the steam heating boiler as they very fussy machines.

Robert

[steamer_ctn]

Hi Robert,

SP 0-6-0, on 03 September 2017 - 05:55 PM, said:

There are definitely situations that would call for cutting of the HEP supply as it subtracts a substantial amount of power from the diesel locomotives main engine when talking about older HEP units. Amtrak has to cut the HEP sometimes to make Cuesta Grade for instance.

It would be very worth while to model the physics effects on the locomotives so equipped. Whether it be the loss of traction when the water tanks on a EMD F7 or E8 are getting low or the additional loss of fuel oil in the tanks as the steam boiler is burning for smaller Alco and EMD switchers with small fuel tanks.

Further there should be a connection between the control and firing of the steam generator and the effects on the steam heating of passenger cars since this feature already exists.

.................. SNIP

Thanks for the feedback.

I don't think that their is value in reproducing all possible features, however I am happy to explore the features that impact the "driving" of the locomotive (impact its performance) further.

As suggested in the earlier post I will need a small team of testers to support further development of the code.

Thanks