[atsf37l]

I have just submitted a bug report (1659179) on the issue of missing statements in OR only steam engine files. I guess it would also apply to diesels but steam was my focus on evaluating the problem. The documentation under "OR_Steam Model_02_03_2104" does not mention the three statements in question: MaxPower, MaxForce and MaxVelocity and modelers are building new OR engine files without the statements. But the consist building program ConBuilder tosses error messages saying those statements are missing in the engine file. In speaking with the ConBuilder staff they point out that the MaxVelocity carries over from the locomotive to the consist file so that max speed for an AI would be zero and it would never run.

This message is for others to weigh in to the discussion. :bigboss:

[copperpen]

I set up a short activity on the AU test route with a player "chase" loco and an AI train to investigate this. With maxvelocity present in the eng file and zero maxvelocity in the con file, the AI moved off normally. With no Maxvelocity line in the eng file or the con file, the AI still moved away normally, using steam locomotives.

Looking at max speeds achieved, with no maxvelocity present in eng or con file the AI slowly accelerated and maxed at 38.1 mph. With no maxvelocity in the eng file, but a figure in the con file, max speed reached was that of the con file, 85 mph.. With maxvelocity in the eng file of 85mph and zero figures in the con file the AI still accelerated slowly on past the 38.1 mph of the first run. Therefore, OR does not need a maxvelocity in eng or con file, but train performance will be below par if there are no figures in the con file for maxvelocity. and acceleration rate.

PS:- Not tried with diesel or electric.

[cr-stagg]

I think something got lost in the translation. Consist MaxVelocity is used by MSTS both SIM and AE. What I said to Herb was "Then use that consist as an AI consist in the MSTS AE when creating an activity. Now use the AE to test the Activity. The AI will NEVER move!"

I was referring to using the MSTS AE to test an activity with a consist with MaxVelocity ( 0.000 0.0000 ), NOT running it in ORTS.

Zero CON MaxVelocity results in the MSTS AE cannot be used to test the Activity. All this points out is the need for an ORTS AE.

[atsf37l]

copperpen, on 25 January 2017 - 08:40 AM, said:

I set up a short activity on the AU test route with a player "chase" loco and an AI train to investigate this. With maxvelocity present in the eng file and zero maxvelocity in the con file, the AI moved off normally. With no Maxvelocity line in the eng file or the con file, the AI still moved away normally, using steam locomotives.

Looking at max speeds achieved, with no maxvelocity present in eng or con file the AI slowly accelerated and maxed at 38.1 mph. With no maxvelocity in the eng file, but a figure in the con file, max speed reached was that of the con file, 85 mph.. With maxvelocity in the eng file of 85mph and zero figures in the con file the AI still accelerated slowly on past the 38.1 mph of the first run. Therefore, OR does not need a maxvelocity in eng or con file, but train performance will be below par if there are no figures in the con file for maxvelocity. and acceleration rate.

PS:- Not tried with diesel or electric.

Good. This is what I hoped would happen, that someone more familiar with AI activity would test the AI functionality with and without the MaxVelocity, MaxPower and MaxForce statements. It has been forever since I set up an AI and I would have had to relearn what I've forgotten LOL!

I have to agree with Charlie, we really need editors for ORTS so that we can stop worrying about backward compatibility. Obviously RE is not going to show movement when testing in its MSTS environment but apparently ORTS doesn't care if the statements are there or not.

But the problem with the ConBuilder program throwing error messages on OR based engine files still remains. As much as I enjoy using ConBuilder, those pop ups are a pain and will continue to be a larger pain as more and more "ORTS only" locomotives are produced. You can't just ignore them because there may be a genuine error in the report file that needs addressing in addition to what amount to copious bogus errors on OR only engines that you have to weed through in order to find any real ones... :bigboss:

[atsf37l]

Perhaps the entry of a line in the engine file clearly identifying the locomotive as “OR Only” that could be recognized by ConBuilder to so that it would skip the test for the “Max’s?” :bigboss:

[cr-stagg]

atsf37l, on 25 January 2017 - 11:07 AM, said:

...........
But the problem with the ConBuilder program throwing error messages on OR based engine files still remains. As much as I enjoy using ConBuilder, those pop ups are a pain and will continue to be a larger pain as more and more "ORTS only" locomotives are produced. You can't just ignore them because there may be a genuine error in the report file that needs addressing in addition to what amount to copious bogus errors on OR only engines that you have to weed through in order to find any real ones... :bigboss:

Herb,
There are only two popup error messages for startup errors. (One after ConBuilder reads the ENG files and the other after reading the WAG files.) Then you have the option of clicking on a button to read a TXT file of the errors and fix them or just ignore them. ConBuilder still loads the ENG/WAG except for the ones like file not in Unicode format which will cause MSTS to crash. However as I pointed out to you ConBuiler now has a Flag for the user to set to tell ConBuilder that the user is using ORTS. And as of version 6.0.5 ConBuilder now uses that Flag to skip the Unicode test since ORTS does not crash if ENG/wAG files are not in Unicode format.

Why does ConBuilder and other Consist Editors do a startup check? To eliminate problems that will cause the sim (MSTS mostly) or the CE to crash or to ensure that information that the CE displays is present. It also checks for items used to calculate other values such as consist MaxVelocity.

ConBuilder checks for the following:
Unicode
MaxVelocity
MaxForce
MaxPower
Mass
Size
Continuity of Filename, and Wagon, Engine, & Wagon lines
WagonShape
And I think, but have not confirmed, that startup also checks for Coupler Type.

As I understand ORTS most of the above items will not cause a problem to ORTS. Even a missing WagonShape file or misspelled filename will not cause ORTS to crash, but it will result in a blank or ghost display of the ENG/WAG. Further versions of ConBuilder will use this ORTS Flag to skip more items in the startup tests.

Did you notice that, even though ConBuilder gave you a startup error for MaxPower, it did display your CB&Q ENG in the CE? However it displays "0" for Engine power since the MaxPower line is not in the ENG file. I see this as a hindrance for the user while creating consists as there is no information for them to use when selecting which & how many engines to use based on consist mass.

[cr-stagg]

atsf37l, on 25 January 2017 - 11:27 AM, said:

Perhaps the entry of a line in the engine file clearly identifying the locomotive as “OR Only” that could be recognized by ConBuilder to so that it would skip the test for the “Max’s?” :bigboss:

An "OR Only" line will not solve the situation of old ENG/WAG files that may have "errors" that have no affect ORTS and do not need to be tested, if the user is not using MSTS. Where as an OTRS flag that the user sets in the CE's options can override the unnecessary testing.

[atsf37l]

I have come up with my own solution for this and I recommend it to all ORTS users who also use ConBuilder as well as those who are building locomotives for OR use only. Between the Type and Wheelradius statements under Engine Wagon add the missing statements like so:
Wagon ( cbq919xtra )
ORTSSteamLocomotiveType ( Simple )
Type ( Steam )
MaxPower ( 550kW )
MaxForce ( 26337lbf )
MaxVelocity ( 60mph )
WheelRadius ( 0.8205m )
NumWheels ( 3 )
Sanding ( 20mph )

In this case, Derek Miller's wonderful CB&Q 4-6-0's which are found here in the downloads as an OR only locomotive. But he did betas with the values and I just happened to have them. If you don't have the values just put ( 0 ) and the loco will run just fine. Most of us will be able to figure out the MaxVelocity - driver diameter in MPH - and if you have the power and force figures feel free to add them.

Once these three lines are saved in your engine file then the locomotive will operate flawlessly in ORTS and will not give any errors in ConBuilder. :bigboss:

[steamer_ctn]

atsf37l, on 24 January 2017 - 07:48 PM, said:

The documentation under "OR_Steam Model_02_03_2104" does not mention the three statements in question: MaxPower, MaxForce and MaxVelocity and modelers are building new OR engine files without the statements.

In OR, these values are not required to be provided by the modeller as they are calculated by OR from the locomotive design parameters provided in the OR ENG file.

In regards to the parameters in this document, it is probably dated now, as these parameters are in the main manual. The last section will be removed when I get a chance.

My understanding is that OR treats the two MaxVelocity parameters differently depending upon which file that they are in. (My suspicion is that MSTS also treats them differently as well, as there would be no reason to duplicate the value in two different files, however I am not 100% certain of this).

ENG File - In this file MaxVelocity indicates the locomotive's critical design speed, in other words "the point at which maximum power is developed by the locomotive". This is usually impacted by the capabilities of the steam cylinder. This may not be the maximum possible speed of the locomotive, as this will depend upon tonnage loading and track conditions.

CON File - In this file the MaxVelocity indicates the maximum speed of the consist. I understand that OR uses this value for speed limit display in the HUD, and also for the speed of AI train consists.

In a lot of instances, these values may not be the same, as the loading or route conditions may effect the CON file value. It could be lower then the ENG file value if some of the rolling stock is speed limited, or heavily loaded, etc. Conversely in some instances the ENG file value can be lower then the CON value, if lightly loaded and good track conditions are applicable.

Thus I believe that these values should be considered separately, and calculated differently. A calculator for the locomotive critical speed (or the MaxVelocity) can be found here.

atsf37l, on 25 January 2017 - 04:28 PM, said:

I have come up with my own solution for this and I recommend it to all ORTS users who also use ConBuilder as well as those who are building locomotives for OR use only. Between the Type and Wheelradius statements under Engine Wagon add the missing statements like so:

I would suggest that if this approach is used that the non-OR parameters be grouped together and separated by a Comment statement indicating that they are not required for correct OR operation. This will ensure that anybody using the file as a template will understand that these values are not mandatory for OR, but optional extras.

[cr-stagg]

Will the OR De3velopment Team please give a definitive answer?

First Copperpen says ORTS does not use the MaxVelocity values in consist files.

copperpen, on 25 January 2017 - 08:40 AM, said:

I set up a short activity on the AU test route with a player "chase" loco and an AI train to investigate this. With maxvelocity present in the eng file and zero maxvelocity in the con file, the AI moved off normally. With no Maxvelocity line in the eng file or the con file, the AI still moved away normally, using steam locomotives.

Looking at max speeds achieved, with no maxvelocity present in eng or con file the AI slowly accelerated and maxed at 38.1 mph. With no maxvelocity in the eng file, but a figure in the con file, max speed reached was that of the con file, 85 mph.. With maxvelocity in the eng file of 85mph and zero figures in the con file the AI still accelerated slowly on past the 38.1 mph of the first run. Therefore, OR does not need a maxvelocity in eng or con file, but train performance will be below par if there are no figures in the con file for maxvelocity. and acceleration rate.

PS:- Not tried with diesel or electric.

Then Steamer says that ORTS uses the MaxVelocity values in consist files:

steamer_ctn, on 26 January 2017 - 03:07 AM, said:

.........
CON File - In this file the MaxVelocity indicates the maximum speed of the consist. I understand that OR uses this value for speed limit display in the HUD, and also for the speed of AI train consists.

In a lot of instances, these values may not be the same, as the loading or route conditions may effect the CON file value. It could be lower then the ENG file value if some of the rolling stock is speed limited, or heavily loaded, etc. Conversely in some instances the ENG file value can be lower then the CON value, if lightly loaded and good track conditions are applicable.

...........

Last night the code was added to ConBuilder to skip the Startup tests in ENG files to test for the presence of MaxVelocity, MaxPower and MaxForce.

These values from the ENG file are used by the Consist Editors (from the MSTS CE to Goku's TRSE5) to calculate the two values in the MaxVelocity line in consist files. When I went to school multiplication by zero results in zero.