[Lindsayts]

Firstly, I consider Openrails is excellent sim in itself and more on this directly, It seems though any post that does not praise in some way Openrails is considered as seriously hostile, I would like to though bring up a number of points that I think is holding the project up, and I would hope these will be read and considered carefully.

I find Openrails is in itself excellent to use particularly in explore mode, the general graphics are excellent. There being a number of newer extensions like high resolution 2D cabs and also 3D CAbs as well as Timetable mode which really add to th experience, BUT there is almost no new material being developed. It appears in Australia for instance no work on MSTS related items is being done, there appear to be a number of contributing issues for this,

1: In newer versions of WIndows MSTS's editor and tools no longer works or is very difficult to get going, 3 of the developers in Aus have given this as a reason for abandoning MSTS completely.

2 Most activities do not work correctly in Openrails due its considerably better "physics", yet there is no easy way to update an activty, while one can test the activity and edit the files directly and I have done this its a REAL MAJOR headache.

3 There is a perception in the outside world that Openrails is in complete an example is in signalling. In recent weeks I have seen at least 3 threads on other forums saying OR has been given away because the signalling did not work correctly (British and German). Yet the signalling in MSTS/OR is scriptable and therefore subject in some to user way control. BUT and I repeat BUT there aappears to be no user documentation or particuarly tutorials on how to fix this.

This lack of tutorial style of Documentation is I believe a real serious issue as there is now almost no step be step docs on how to do things in the Openrails way.

4: The apparent lack of a coordinated set tools for OR, a route editor, a consist editor, a activities editor, part of this now is a Documentation issue.

I do not know all the answers to these questions but i DO believe it is getting to the time where we as Openrails users and developers start looking at the overall bigger picture and make Openrails the REAL WORLD BEATING SIMULATOR it really is.

A final comment the current lack of major developers for Openrails almost certainly reflects on the declining number of users of OR, the rest moving over to other train sims due to Openrails apparent lacks. THIS IS NOT INTENDED AS ANY KIND OF CRITICISM OF THE CURRENT DEVELOPERS.

Lindsay

[cjakeman]

Lindsayts, on 10 December 2016 - 01:24 PM, said:

I would like to though bring up a number of points that I think is holding the project up, and I would hope these will be read and considered carefully.

Your viewpoint is always of value, Lindsay.

Lindsayts, on 10 December 2016 - 01:24 PM, said:

Yet the signalling in MSTS/OR is scriptable and therefore subject in some to user way control. BUT and I repeat BUT there appears to be no user documentation or particularly tutorials on how to fix this.

This lack of tutorial style of Documentation is I believe a real serious issue as there is now almost no step be step docs on how to do things in the Openrails way.

Documentation is always an issue despite past efforts of a few individuals. This is partly because the details being documented change and it's not easy to keep up. I'm interested in the ReST scheme that James has introduced and intend to put in some effort in that direction.

[Lindsayts]

cjakeman, on 10 December 2016 - 02:33 PM, said:

Your viewpoint is always of value, Lindsay.



Documentation is always an issue despite past efforts of a few individuals. This is partly because the details being documented change and it's not easy to keep up. I'm interested in the ReST scheme that James has introduced and intend to put in some effort in that direction.

This is something I believe anyone can contribute to, not just the developers, so if anyone finds out how to do anything that has no documentation, PLEASE write something down.

[Kazareh]

One thing I want to bring up, is Optimization. Which ORTS seems to have little to none of. I right now am down to a horrid video card, a Geforce 7300 LE. My HD 6950 died, so.

However, ORTS is unplayable on it. With the MINIMUM graphics, view distance, etc, I can only muster 1-5 Frames per Second. Yet on World of Tanks, even with Higher Settings? 20FPS.

Needless to say, the optimization of ORTS needs, to be brought up a bit for sure.Other than that, though, I'm quite happy with the sim as it is; though Lindsay defintiely brought up good points I hadn't thought of as well.

[railguy]

While I share some of Lindsay's concerns, I have a bit of a differing viewpoint. First, the lack of new content being created is, I believe, a reflection of the reality that it is MSTS that is dying. A real handicap for OR is the lack of a decent activity editor. The only reason that I leave MSTS on my computer is to use its AE because OR doesn't have one. If the OR team could build a workable OR AE, I believe there would be a lot more people who would use OR.

Second, I disagree that the number of OR users is declining. More and more people are getting tired of clunky MSTS and are sticking their toe into the OR waters. I do agree that a lack of documentation for some OR functions is discouraging some people from trying OR.

Third, there is a harsh reality coming for both MSTS and OR: the competing sims, Trainsim World and Run 8 in particular, are rapidly passing up MSTS and OR both in graphics capability. If TSW can deliver on decent physics and eventually offers a variety of content, it will likely mean the death of MSTS for many simmers. Run8 is getting better all the time, but likely is a bit too realistic in operation for many simmers. OR offers the happy medium of realism and gameplay, but it needs better scenery, graphics, and new content to really take off.

I believe that the OR team has achieved miracles in building an open platform train sim. Unlike the current crop of payware train simulators, there is still an avenue for people to build a good inventory of routes and rolling stock for OR without going broke to do it. That's a huge advantage--with just a little more progress on the items above, OR can still be the best all around train sim out there. As for MSTS, its era has passed.

[vince]

I dont think OR should be 'optimized' so it will run on a inadequate users system. It certainly does not make much sense to 'dumb down' software to run on a tinker toy computer.
And baloney for those other Sims. Nuts to them trying to peddle their junkware.
And comparing two totally different Sims, Tanks & Trains is like comparing water to ice.
One is tough to swallow but can be argued 'it's the same thing' so why does it choke my machine. ummm, because maybe it's different?

I had a win7 hyperthread dual core. What a piece of junk that was, about equal to what you are attempting to run.
I junked it in favor of an i5QuadCore GTX650 and Win 10 Runs OR and the new TSRE5 slick as goose snot. NO problems at all! The Win 10 OS was a free upgrade so all I paid was about $500 for the hardware.
vince

[Kazareh]

vince, on 10 December 2016 - 04:45 PM, said:

I dont think OR should be 'optimized' so it will run on a inadequate users system. It certainly does not make much sense to 'dumb down' software to run on a tinker toy computer.
And baloney for those other Sims. Nuts to them trying to peddle their junkware.
And comparing two totally different Sims, Tanks & Trains is like comparing water to ice.
One is tough to swallow but can be argued 'it's the same thing' so why does it choke my machine. ummm, because maybe it's different?

I had a win7 hyperthread dual core. What a piece of junk that was, about equal to what you are attempting to run.
I junked it in favor of an i5QuadCore GTX650 and Win 10 Runs OR and the new TSRE5 slick as goose snot. NO problems at all! The Win 10 OS was a free upgrade so all I paid was about $500 for the hardware.
vince

Vince, do you care to pay for a new computer for me..? If not, don't bring that up. Anyone can 'throw money at a problem till it goes away', however not all of us have the money to DO that.

Also Optimization isn't dumbing the system down, either. Proper games with good optimization run better than others and still have great things in the Graphics department. They can also be adjusted with settings as well for example, adjusting strength of AntiAliasing, Texture Quality, etc. There really isn't much a reason ORTS Can't do the same, and just get the program to run smoother and better optimized on the graphics front. I mean when a game with as old as a graphics engine as World of Tanks can produce an image as such? I don't think ORTS has much arguing room here. That screencap when taken was running at 60FPS due to frame-limiting, where as if unlimited would have ran at 142FPS. Yet sometimes, even when my Radeon HD 6950 was working? ORTS struggles to break 40FPS.

Edited for clarification of one point and additional screencap

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[conductorchris]

I agree that an activity editor is important. Fewer and fewer people can even run MSTS.

Another course would be to continue work on the timetable format. Introducing switching into the timetable format and you'd no longer have so much need for an activity editor. If switching could be randomized in the manner of skyline computing's activity generator, well that would be even more cool.

Another thing Open Rails does not have which the other sims do is a marketing department. This influences how many people know of it and thus the amount of potential people who might work on it and improve it. If only I had more time I'd do some work in this area myself, do alas I don't.

Christopher

[vince]

Kazareh, on 10 December 2016 - 05:10 PM, said:

Vince, do you care to pay for a new computer for me..? If not, don't bring that up. Anyone can 'throw money at a problem till it goes away', however not all of us have the money to DO that.

Also Optimization isn't dumbing the system down, either. Proper games with good optimization run better than others and still have great things in the Graphics department. They can also be adjusted with settings as well for example, adjusting strength of AntiAliasing, Texture Quality, etc. There really isn't much a reason ORTS Can't do the same, and just get the program to run smoother and better optimized on the graphics front. I mean when a game with as old as a graphics engine as World of Tanks can produce an image as such? I don't think ORTS has much arguing room here. That screencap when taken was running at 60FPS due to frame-limiting, where as if unlimited would have ran at 142FPS. Yet sometimes, even when my Radeon HD 6950 was working? ORTS struggles to break 40FPS.Edited for clarification of one point and additional screencap

Completely different game engine. Apples & Oranges. And $500 bucks not exactly what I call 'throwing money' at the problem.
Are you suggesting that OR choose a different game engine for the reasons you mention?
regards,
vince

[SP 0-6-0]

I concur that ORTS and TSRE5 both need optmizations to let them run more efficiently. TSRE5 also lacks memeory management. There really is no reason to make excuses on behalf of either program as the designers can and should try to do better.

The real issues are the lack of developers however. ORTS had a healthy developer base but it has dwindled to just a couple of active developers. This contributes to all the other programs. Some mentioned and some not yet mentioned.


Let's not forget that MSTS and ORTS both stand to loose one of the vast sites full of resources by 2018 if something does not change. I've mentioned this already and been shot at and thus will not mention the site.

Robert