[cr-stagg]

ATW, on 30 April 2016 - 08:22 AM, said:

Think I should start putting comment tips of what some parameters are in my next release.

Are you writing ORTS code that uses these Parameters and creating ENG files or just creating ENG files?

Comments would not be necessary if there was an ORTS Eng_and_wag_file_reference_guide document.

[copperpen]

As OR physics is an evolving thing, a reference manual is probably not practical right now. Comments where appropriate should be sufficient until things are finalised.

The code that uses these parameters has already been written, but not a lot of guidance supplied in applying parameters to use the code.

[cr-stagg]

copperpen, on 30 April 2016 - 11:00 AM, said:

As OR physics is an evolving thing, a reference manual is probably not practical right now. Comments where appropriate should be sufficient until things are finalised.

The code that uses these parameters has already been written, but not a lot of guidance supplied in applying parameters to use the code.

Understand that it is evolving, but how about an evolving reference, like a web page that is a table of Parameters, unit of measurement, max & min value. As it is now we see all these usages of ORTS parameters that ATW is posting that have NO unit of measurement shown:
ORTSEngineBrakeReleaseRate ( 38 )
ORTSEngineBrakeApplicationRate ( 34 )
ORTSAirBrakesMainresvolume ( 0.43 )
ORTSMainResChargingRate ( 3.1 )
ORTSBrakePipeChargingRate ( 199.0 )

[copperpen]

Far as I am aware those particular parameters are not used, at least I can find no reference to them in the code. A table of used parameters with units/max/min would indeed be a useful document, and if web based would probably be best located at the OR web site.

[ATW]

I am not a code writer but a user an tester of those parameters which I saw in a manual that didn't even give enough info but decided to test them an saw changes. No one was interested some posts back so I just experimented on my own.

My comments will be a reference but unit's of measure wasn't included in the Manuel. I have been in cabs an cab rides on unit's an using some of these parameters show just the things I have seen on the screen in variety of ways such as brake performance. Think of the parameters as optional with variety as not all unit's of the same prototype always perform the same like smoke an color for example.

So my thing if no one understands them an I don't give my experience reference an view then it won't be as simple for one on their end like me an my fish an experiment.

The engine release an application with 38 an 34 is same as the MSTS parameter that worked in ORTS when I used a raildriver.

My last wish to calculate an experiment these not enough info but research is have a Air Brake Flow meter in HUD at least.

With the files included an testing in a duplicated consists but different engines I would like one to tell me the difference they see in BP performance applying/release.... SD70MAC vs C44-9W.... or is that a big deal finding an messing around to experiment an find out before I give my reference again like I did in some posts before? Just delete out on your end if you don't like as one asked for all the known parameters to be put as a template.

[disc]

James Ross, on 30 April 2016 - 02:32 AM, said:

I can see no evidence in the code that these items need to be in their own "ORTS" blocks;

From MSTSLocomotive.cs

case "engine(orts(ortssanderspeedeffectupto": SanderSpeedEffectUpToMpS = stf.ReadFloatBlock(STFReader.UNITS.Speed, null); break;
                case "engine(orts(ortsemergencycausespowerdown": EmergencyCausesPowerDown = stf.ReadBoolBlock(false); break;
                case "engine(orts(ortsemergencycausesthrottledown": EmergencyCausesThrottleDown = stf.ReadBoolBlock(false); break;
                case "engine(orts(ortsemergencyengageshorn": EmergencyEngagesHorn = stf.ReadBoolBlock(false); break;
                case "engine(orts(ortswheelslipcausesthrottledown": WheelslipCausesThrottleDown = stf.ReadBoolBlock(false); break;

cr-stagg, on 30 April 2016 - 11:21 AM, said:

ORTSEngineBrakeApplicationRate ( 34 )
ORTSAirBrakesMainresvolume ( 0.43 )
ORTSMainResChargingRate ( 3.1 )
ORTSBrakePipeChargingRate ( 199.0 )

same as MSTS default, which is psi for pressure, so these are psi/sec, but as i see BARps can be used too.
ORTSAirBrakesMainresvolume is not exists in OR, but if it would exists then the default is ft³, but m³ unit can be used too.

[James Ross]

disc, on 30 April 2016 - 01:00 PM, said:

From MSTSLocomotive.cs

case "engine(orts(ortssanderspeedeffectupto": SanderSpeedEffectUpToMpS = stf.ReadFloatBlock(STFReader.UNITS.Speed, null); break;
                case "engine(orts(ortsemergencycausespowerdown": EmergencyCausesPowerDown = stf.ReadBoolBlock(false); break;
                case "engine(orts(ortsemergencycausesthrottledown": EmergencyCausesThrottleDown = stf.ReadBoolBlock(false); break;
                case "engine(orts(ortsemergencyengageshorn": EmergencyEngagesHorn = stf.ReadBoolBlock(false); break;
                case "engine(orts(ortswheelslipcausesthrottledown": WheelslipCausesThrottleDown = stf.ReadBoolBlock(false); break;

That's not what I meant; look above these lines and you'll see a whole bunch of "ORTS*" items with no "ORTS" block around them. I don't know why these ones have that extra block - but like I said, maybe we can't change that now without breaking content.

[James Ross]

cr-stagg, on 30 April 2016 - 07:51 AM, said:

I asked a question in post #17 that no one has addressed. So I will rephrase the question: Where is the ORTS equivalent of the MSTS document "Eng_and_wag_file_reference_guide"?

Lines like ORTSEmergencyCausesThrottleDown( 1 ) are understandable, values are either 1 or 0, but ORTSEngineBrakeReleaseRate ( 38 ) is not. 38 what? pounds per minute, or tons per second or liters per hour?

The manual is the current correct place for documentation on these parameters and it will almost always lag behind the actually-available items - expecting anything else is foolish - but now that we've converted the manual to ReStructuredText it may be reasonable for developers to put something in there sooner when new parameters are added.

[disc]

James Ross, on 02 May 2016 - 02:31 AM, said:

That's not what I meant; look above these lines and you'll see a whole bunch of "ORTS*" items with no "ORTS" block around them. I don't know why these ones have that extra block - but like I said, maybe we can't change that now without breaking content.

Exactly what i tried to write first. I don't know either why is that orts() block is needed, because other parameters don't use that block.
Maybe we can change it like this by adding other cases:

case "engine(ortsemergencycausespowerdown":
case "engine(orts(ortsemergencycausespowerdown": EmergencyCausesPowerDown = stf.ReadBoolBlock(false); break;
case "engine(ortsemergencycausesthrottledown":
case "engine(orts(ortsemergencycausesthrottledown": EmergencyCausesThrottleDown = stf.ReadBoolBlock(false); break;
case "engine(ortsemergencyengageshorn":
case "engine(orts(ortsemergencyengageshorn": EmergencyEngagesHorn = stf.ReadBoolBlock(false); break;
...

Then write in manual, that orts() block is deprecated, use these params without it, then later remove the unnecessary code.

[steamer_ctn]

cr-stagg, on 30 April 2016 - 11:21 AM, said:

Understand that it is evolving, but how about an evolving reference, like a web page that is a table of Parameters, unit of measurement, max & min value. As it is now we see all these usages of ORTS parameters that ATW is posting that have NO unit of measurement shown:
ORTSEngineBrakeReleaseRate ( 38 )
ORTSEngineBrakeApplicationRate ( 34 )
ORTSAirBrakesMainresvolume ( 0.43 )
ORTSMainResChargingRate ( 3.1 )
ORTSBrakePipeChargingRate ( 199.0 )

Do you mean something like this?

It can be accessed via this page.

Thanks

[cr-stagg]

steamer_ctn, on 02 May 2016 - 02:18 PM, said:

Do you mean something like http://www.coalstone...arameter-brake/
............

Like that YES. BUT on www.openrails.org and for ALL engine parameters specific to ORTS not just Brake parameters.

A table like that is MUCH better than scattered out in the ORTS Manual. If in the Manual, it could be in an Annex in table form, even if repeating what is in the body of the Manual.

[ATW]

I like that idea too. But before I release my next beta template out along with new additions like typical or company specific Dash8's SD60's GP60s's etc what are the things requested besides capital Include lines... comment explanation reference lines explaining OR Parameters or no?

[Lindsayts]

May I point out that in OR Documentation is something anyone can (and should) be apart of if one thinks the manual could be improved, like for instance a table of eng parameters, then PLEASE have a crack at it, a couple of thoughts on the subject......

An entry could look something like this................

Parameter, typical usage, reference page fro description in main section of manual

Group the parameters in sections as normally used in an eng file, my aim for this idea is to make it easy to use includes.
As our host and myself are the only ones to have done much work on this it may pay to talk to both of us.
As I have said previously "includes" are a major way of simplifying eng files, so it is worth pursuing.

Buy the way, has anyone writen a section on includes to put in the manual?

Lindsay

[DirtyRam]

Good day, This is what I've been working on. Finally test ran a consist with this as the leader. Much to my delight it ran really well with minimal errors. Needs fine tuning and is a big WIP. All my power load ingame and are ConBuilder friendly with no errors. I started this before I read Dave's hard work, and it helped turn a few key lights on for me. I like the way Dave has set up the prototypical structure and will eventually change mine. I did it this way to be close to msts structure for now. Thought it would make it easier for people to transition over. There is still a ways to go until we can get a solid, set way of doing things for OR.

SIMISA@@@@@@@@@@JINX0D0t______

Wagon ( UP_DDA40X_6905
Type ( Engine )
WagonShape ( UP_DDA40X_6905.s )
FreightAnim ( UP_DDA40X_6905_FA.s 1 1 1 )
Size ( 3.2m 4.52m 29.79m )
Mass ( 247.4t )

Include ( "..\\ORPower\\FrtLoco\\MeshLoco\\MeshUPDDA40XSLI.inc" )
Include ( "..\\ORPower\\FrtLoco\\Couplers\\CouplerRoadLarge.inc" )
Include ( "..\\ORPower\\FrtLoco\\WeightLoco\\WeightUPDDA40X.inc" )
Include ( "..\\ORPower\\FrtLoco\\BrakesLoco\\BrakesEngineMaxProCompLarge.inc" )
Include ( "..\\ORPower\\FrtLoco\\LightsLoco\\LightsUPDDA40XSLI.inc" )
Include ( "..\\ORPower\\FrtLoco\\Sound\\SoundUPDDA40XEngRS5T.inc" )
)

Engine ( UP_DDA40X_6905
Wagon ( UP_DDA40X_6905 )
Type ( Diesel )
MaxPower ( 6600hp )

Include ( "..\\ORPower\\FrtLoco\\CabsLoco\\CabDDA40X.inc" )
Include ( "..\\ORPower\\FrtLoco\\SandingTime.inc" )
Include ( "..\\ORPower\\FrtLoco\\PrimeMovers\\EngineUPDDA40X.inc" )
Include ( "..\\ORPower\\FrtLoco\\PrimeMovers\\EngineUPDDA40X2.inc" )
Include ( "..\\ORPower\\FrtLoco\\AirCompressors\\AirCompressorUPDDA40X.inc" )
Include ( "..\\ORPower\\FrtLoco\\EngineTrainBrakes.inc" )
Include ( "..\\ORPower\\FrtLoco\\BrakesLoco\\BrakesDynUPDDA40X.inc" )
Include ( "..\\ORPower\\FrtLoco\\AntiSlipThrottlePowerDown.inc" )
Include ( "..\\ORPower\\FrtLoco\\ExhaustLoco\\ExhaustUPDDA40XSLI.inc" )
Include ( "..\\ORPower\\FrtLoco\\ExhaustLoco\\ExhaustUPDDA40X2SLI.inc" )
Include ( "..\\ORPower\\FrtLoco\\EngineMonitors.inc" )
Include ( "..\\ORPower\\FrtLoco\\ControllersLoco\\BrakeCompContEMD645Frt90psi.inc" )
Include ( "..\\ORPower\\FrtLoco\\Fuel\\FuelLevel5300.inc" )
Include ( "..\\ORPower\\FrtLoco\\Sound\\SoundUPDDA40XCabRS5T.inc" )

Name ( "SLI UP DDA40X 6905 OR" )
Description (
"Model: DDA40X \n\n"+
"Horsepower: 6600 hp \n\n"+
"Max.Speed: 90 mph \n\n"+
"Built: 1969-1971" )
)

SIMISA@@@@@@@@@@JINX0D0t______

Wagon ( UP37664_l
Type ( Freight )
Name ( "UP 37664 4 Bay Coal LD" )
WagonShape ( UP37664_l.s )
Size ( 2.90m 4.05m 15.92m )
Mass ( 120t )
comment ( For cars equipped uncushioned slack pro couplers )
Coupling (
Type ( Automatic )
Spring (
Stiffness ( 0 5e6N/m )
Damping ( 5e6N/m/s 5e6N/m/s )
Break ( 5.1e7N 5.1e7N )
r0 ( 5cm 8cm )
)
Velocity ( 0.2m/s )
)

Include ( "..\\ORStock\\Hopper\\Mesh\\MeshUP4BayCoalESLW.inc" )
Include ( "..\\ORStock\\Hopper\\Weight\\Weight4BayCoal120t.inc" )
Include ( "..\\ORStock\\Frt\\BrakesComp\\BrakesMaxProComp120t.inc" )

Sound ( "GenFreightWag1.sms" )
)

I'm not absolutely sure about eng files yet as this is the first run. Like, am I getting full horsepower etc.

We are on a road to change for the better,

Mike

[cr-stagg]

DirtyRam, on 18 June 2017 - 07:36 PM, said:

Good day, This is what I've been working on. Finally test ran a consist with this as the leader. Much to my delight it ran really well with minimal errors. Needs fine tuning and is a big WIP. All my power load ingame and are ConBuilder friendly with no errors. I started this before I read Dave's hard work, and it helped turn a few key lights on for me. I like the way Dave has set up the prototypical structure and will eventually change mine. I did it this way to be close to msts structure for now. Thought it would make it easier for people to transition over. There is still a ways to go until we can get a solid, set way of doing things for OR.
.......
Mike

Mike,
You state that your ENG file for "SLI UP DDA40X 6905 OR" is "ConBuilder friendly". Just which version of ConBuilder are you referring to? The current version or one of the old freeware versions.

I created an ENG file from your post above and got these two errors when I opened the current version :

Cannot locate the line "Maxforce (" in the file UP_DDA40X_6905.eng
Folder A:\CB-ENG_Test\TRAINS\TRAINSET\New folder

Cannot locate the line "Maxvelocity (" in the file UP_DDA40X_6905.eng
Folder A:\CB-ENG_Test\TRAINS\TRAINSET\New folder

Why does the current ConBuilder version look for these lines in ENG files?
Well the values in those lines are used in the calculation of values in the MaxVelocity line in Consist files. The old freeware version just made an entry of "MaxVelocity ( 40.0000 1.00000 )" but also had a tool for the user to change the values manually.
After making ConBuilder a Payware product one of the improvements we made was to add the code to calculate values for the Consist MaxVelocity line.

Without those values in the ENG file your proposed format is not only "UNFRIENDLY" to ConBuilder it is also unfriendly to Convoi, the Route Rite CE, YardMaster and according to my testing TSRE5.

Also whenever you create a consist using "SLI UP DDA40X 6905 OR" as the lead engine ConBuilder will issue a false Warning that the Consist is non-drivable because ConBuilder cannot find the CabView line.

Testing your ENG with Convoi I found it would not load the engine as it could not find the parameter Wagon/coupling/type.