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Brakes Question ? Rate Topic: -----

#11 User is offline   Genma Saotome 

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Posted 20 February 2015 - 10:02 AM

WRT Prieger's Pro Brakes, why is the MaxBrakeForce() so much higher for small switch engines... about 10X what I expected. A missing decimal point perhaps?

#12 User is offline   scottb613 

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Posted 20 February 2015 - 10:26 AM

Hi Folks,

First off - appreciate all the input...
:)

Seems like we have two different opinions voiced...

1) My freight car physics might be messed up - and - that could very be... I believe I got them with Bob Bodoin with his "Plainsman" blessing... LOL - but - it wouldn't be the first time I've messed something up...

2) The other is the forces might be a bit out of whack on ORTS...

I have no way of knowing which is the case...

I did try upgrading the brakes to the Pro Cast Iron version included with Route Righter - and - same deal - 1% brake on a 2.4% grade is like throwing out a boat anchor...

These are the values I updated and my full WAG file is attached...

        Comment ( 70t railcar  Cast Iron Brake Shoe Equipped Max Braking values by Bill Prieger.  Additional
        braking parameters contributed by Jean-Louis Chauvin.  "Percentage Braking" theory provided generously by Rich Evarts. )
	BrakeEquipmentType( "Handbrake, Triple_valve, Auxilary_reservoir, Emergency_brake_reservoir" )
	BrakeSystemType( "Air_single_pipe" )
	MaxBrakeForce( 0.1346kN )

	MaxHandbrakeForce( 30.2kN )
	NumberOfHandbrakeLeverSteps( 100 )

	EmergencyBrakeResMaxPressure( 90 )
	TripleValveRatio( 2.5 )
	MaxReleaseRate( 1.86 )
	MaxApplicationRate( 0.9 )
	MaxAuxilaryChargingRate( 1.684 )
	EmergencyResCapacity( 2.604 )
	EmergencyResChargingRate( 1.684 )
	BrakeCylinderPressureForMaxBrakeBrakeForce( .50 )


Attached File  WrxPRR1hop55-LD.wag (3.91K)
Number of downloads: 281

Regards,
Scott

#13 User is offline   scottb613 

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Posted 20 February 2015 - 10:43 AM

Hi Folks,

Just so I understand everything correctly...

1% application of brakes equaling about 15 or 16 PSI - seems appropriate ???

It's just that this 15 PSI shouldn't be stopping my heavily loaded train on a steep grade - correct ???

Regards,
Scott

#14 User is offline   Genma Saotome 

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Posted 20 February 2015 - 10:59 AM

View Postscottb613, on 20 February 2015 - 10:26 AM, said:

2) The other is the forces might be a bit out of whack on ORTS...

I have no way of knowing which is the case...



Easy way to test: Run the same train/route in MSTS and note any differences.

#15 User is offline   scottb613 

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Posted 20 February 2015 - 11:20 AM

Hi Dave,

OK - did a real quick test - MSTS - same location - same train - it take 40% to 60% brakes to hold the speed in check...

Seems to me it might be an ORTS issue ?

Regards,
Scott

#16 User is offline   markus_GE 

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Posted 20 February 2015 - 11:21 AM

A 1% application should give you a 15 pound BC set, achieved through a 6 pound BP reduction.

Those numbers you are showing there are very similar to those that I got runaways with. Something really seems "out of whack" here?

Cheers, Markus

#17 User is offline   scottb613 

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Posted 20 February 2015 - 11:31 AM

Hi Markus,

Maybe one of the ORTS options are causing different results ???

Regards,
Scott

#18 User is offline   markus_GE 

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Posted 20 February 2015 - 11:34 AM

Here´s an excerpt from a log file of ORTS (some of the recent versions, probably not the most recent one - but I haven´t changed anything in the options for about 3 months at least):

AdhesionFactor             	= (user set) 	100
AdhesionFactorChange       	=            	10
AdhesionMovingAverageFilterSize =            	10
AdhesionProportionalToWeather  = (user set) 	True
Alerter                    	= (user set) 	True
AlerterDisableExternal     	=            	True
Autopilot                  	=            	False
AuxActionEnabled           	=            	False
AvatarURL                  	= (user set) 	http://www.openrails.org/images/ICONmediumOD.jpg
BrakePipeChargingRate      	=            	21
BreakCouplers              	= (user set) 	True
Cab2DStretch               	= (user set) 	65
CarVibratingLevel          	= (user set) 	1
CircularSpeedGauge         	=            	False
ConditionalLoadOfNightTextures = (user set) 	True
CurveResistanceSpeedDependent  = (user set) 	True
CurveSpeedDependent        	=            	False
DataLogger                 	=            	False
DataLoggerSeparator        	= (user set) 	tab
DataLogMisc                	=            	False
DataLogPerformance         	= (user set) 	False
DataLogPhysics             	=            	False
DataLogSpeedUnits          	=            	route
DataLogStart               	=            	False
DataLogStationStops        	=            	False
DataLogTrainSpeed          	=            	False
DataLogTSContents          	= (user set) 	1, 1, 1, 1, 1, 0, 0, 0, 0, 1, 0, 0
DataLogTSInterval          	=            	10
DayAmbientLight            	= (user set) 	26
DistantMountains           	=            	True
DistantMountainsViewingDistance =            	40000
DoubleWire                 	= (user set) 	True
DynamicShadows             	= (user set) 	True
EnhancedActCompatibility   	= (user set) 	True
ExtendedAIShunting         	= (user set) 	True
FastFullScreenAltTab       	=            	False
FullScreen                 	= (user set) 	True
GraduatedRelease           	=            	False
HotStart                   	=            	True
Language                   	= (user set) 	en
LODBias                    	=            	0
LODViewingExtention        	= (user set) 	True
Logging                    	=            	True
LoggingFilename            	=            	OpenRailsLog.txt
LoggingPath                	=            	C:\Users\markus\Desktop
Menu_Selection             	= (user set) 	C:\MSTS\Train Simulator, C:\MSTS\Train Simulator\ROUTES\atsfgs, C:\MSTS\Train Simulator\ROUTES\atsfgs\ACTIVITIES\Gallup Local - OR.act
ModelInstancing            	= (user set) 	True
MSTSBINSound               	=            	True
Multiplayer                	=            	False
Multiplayer_Host           	= (user set) 	
Multiplayer_Port           	=            	30000
Multiplayer_UpdateInterval 	=            	10
Multiplayer_User           	= (user set) 	
MultiplayerClient          	=            	False
MultiplayerServer          	=            	False
NoForcedRedAtStationStops  	=            	False
OverrideNonElectrifiedRoutes   =            	False
PerformanceTuner           	=            	False
PerformanceTunerTarget     	= (user set) 	40
PreferDDSTexture           	= (user set) 	True
PressureUnit               	=            	Automatic
Profiling                  	=            	False
ProfilingFrameCount        	=            	0
ProfilingTime              	=            	0
ReplayPauseBeforeEnd       	=            	True
ReplayPauseBeforeEndS      	= (user set) 	60
RetainersOnAllCars         	= (user set) 	True
ScreenshotPath             	=            	C:\Users\markus\Pictures\Open Rails
ShaderModel                	=            	3
ShadowAllShapes            	= (user set) 	True
ShadowMapBlur              	= (user set) 	False
ShadowMapCount             	= (user set) 	2
ShadowMapDistance          	=            	1250
ShadowMapResolution        	= (user set) 	2048
ShowAvatar                 	=            	False
ShowErrorDialogs           	=            	True
SignalLightGlow            	= (user set) 	True
SoundDetailLevel           	=            	5
SoundVolumePercent         	= (user set) 	70
SuperElevationGauge        	=            	1435
SuperElevationMinLen       	=            	50
SuppressConfirmations      	= (user set) 	True
SuppressShapeWarnings      	=            	False
TunnelResistanceDependent  	= (user set) 	True
Units                      	= (user set) 	US
UseAdvancedAdhesion        	=            	True
UseLargeAddressAware       	=            	True
UseLocationPassingPaths    	= (user set) 	True
UseMSTSEnv                 	=            	False
UseSuperElevation          	= (user set) 	3
VerticalSync               	= (user set) 	True
ViewDispatcher             	= (user set) 	True
ViewingDistance            	= (user set) 	2500
ViewingFOV                 	= (user set) 	35
WindowGlass                	= (user set) 	True
WindowPosition_Activity    	= (user set) 	42, 47
WindowPosition_CarOperations   = (user set) 	70, 56
WindowPosition_Compass     	= (user set) 	0, 0
WindowPosition_ComposeMessage  = (user set) 	17, 54
WindowPosition_DriverAid   	=            	100, 100
WindowPosition_Help        	= (user set) 	76, 78
WindowPosition_NextStation 	=            	0, 100
WindowPosition_Quit        	= (user set) 	43, 52
WindowPosition_Switch      	= (user set) 	0, 42
WindowPosition_TrackMonitor	= (user set) 	0, 100
WindowPosition_TrainOperations = (user set) 	57, 28
WindowSize                 	= (user set) 	1360x768
Wire                       	=            	True
WorldObjectDensity         	=            	10
YoungestFailedToRestore    	=            	0


Maybe somebody can read something into the settings if you, Scott, also post this excerpt?

Cheers, Markus

#19 User is offline   Genma Saotome 

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Posted 20 February 2015 - 12:03 PM

Scott's numbers are the same as mine: a single click on the ' key is shown as 1% -- one percent of what isn't known... it just says 1%. It produces a 16 PSI brake setting... and the train stops.

It does not make sense that touching the brake key once will do that much, especially as Scott reports he had to go 40-60% (of something) in MSTS to hold the speed incheck -- not stop, just manage the speed.

Something isn't right somewhere.

#20 User is offline   atsf37l 

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Posted 20 February 2015 - 12:13 PM

View Postscottb613, on 20 February 2015 - 11:20 AM, said:

Hi Dave,

OK - did a real quick test - MSTS - same location - same train - it take 40% to 60% brakes to hold the speed in check...

Seems to me it might be an ORTS issue ?

Regards,
Scott

Scott, what engines are you using?

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