Elvas Tower: Manual gearbox observations. - Elvas Tower

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Manual gearbox observations. Rate Topic: -----

#11 User is offline   Matej Pacha 

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Posted 18 February 2014 - 12:17 AM

View Postcopperpen, on 17 February 2014 - 12:06 PM, said:

The automatic box in OR allows the engine rpm to die if the throttle is closed. The manual box does not, which is wrong. These do not have a mechanical clutch like a road vehicle, they have a torque converter style of clutch which allows the engine rpm to drop when the throttle is reduced or closed. the routine is to select gear 1 and accelerate to a given speed, close the throttle, let the revs die, then select the next gear, rinse and repeat until required speed or gear is reached. These units were able to coast in gear with closed throttle. I am aware of the gear overspeed situation, but it does not apply in the case of these units because the hydraulic converter only worked in one direction.

Setting the throttle to zero does not disconnect the clutch or allow the RPM to die which is where the error lies.

Well, there is something wrong with the ENG file, because as I said, there is no difference between the manual gearbox and automatic gearbox, except of the way of ntching up and down. It would be very helpful to have the ENG file of this locomotive. Is there any download link or could you please post the ENG file here? Otherwise I cannot help you.

Thanks,

Matej

#12 User is offline   copperpen 

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Posted 18 February 2014 - 03:15 AM

Matej

Download the one in the link given by Carlo, it behaves in the same way as the ones I am using. I can say that after more test running, the behaviour as you describe is happening at low speed, below 5mph. After that the engine rpm is locked to the gear and train speed regardless of throttle setting.

The operation should be select a gear, open throttle to required amount. Engine speed rises until clutch engages then slowly continues to rise until desired level is reached. Unit should then continue to run with rpm at that level, no increase, even on a down-grade. If the throttle is shut, rpm should decay, not remain locked in to train speed or selected gear. Further, the train speed for each gear has a limit and this limit should not be exceeded, train should cease to accelerate, but it continues past the limit because there is no response to closing the throttle.

#13 User is offline   Csantucci 

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Posted 18 February 2014 - 03:34 AM

copperpen: if the unit has a mechanical gearbox (it's the case of the DMUs of my link), rpm and train speed are locked in reality, except in the moments of gear change, and when there is no gear inserted, where there is no mechanical link between motor and wheels.

#14 User is offline   Matej Pacha 

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Posted 18 February 2014 - 08:41 AM

View Postcopperpen, on 18 February 2014 - 03:15 AM, said:

Matej

Download the one in the link given by Carlo, it behaves in the same way as the ones I am using. I can say that after more test running, the behaviour as you describe is happening at low speed, below 5mph. After that the engine rpm is locked to the gear and train speed regardless of throttle setting.

The operation should be select a gear, open throttle to required amount. Engine speed rises until clutch engages then slowly continues to rise until desired level is reached. Unit should then continue to run with rpm at that level, no increase, even on a down-grade. If the throttle is shut, rpm should decay, not remain locked in to train speed or selected gear. Further, the train speed for each gear has a limit and this limit should not be exceeded, train should cease to accelerate, but it continues past the limit because there is no response to closing the throttle.

Hi, finally I found out what you mean. It was a missunderstanding of MSTS physics then. Well, it should work in v2039. I'm not sure about locking the speed to the throttle setting - just the same as in the car - if you have the force, you will accelerate.

Please try it and let me know.

Cheers,

Matej

#15 User is offline   disc 

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Posted 18 February 2014 - 11:32 AM

What would be the difference in behavior in game between diesel mechanical, and diesel hydraulic transmission?

#16 User is offline   copperpen 

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Posted 18 February 2014 - 12:54 PM

Matej

Just downloaded the latest X version, tested and it now works as it should. Thanks for fixing it. Now to get the correct data in place for a whole fleet.

#17 User is offline   Lindsayts 

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Posted 18 February 2014 - 02:04 PM

View Postcopperpen, on 17 February 2014 - 12:06 PM, said:

The automatic box in OR allows the engine rpm to die if the throttle is closed. The manual box does not, which is wrong. These do not have a mechanical clutch like a road vehicle, they have a torque converter style of clutch which allows the engine rpm to drop when the throttle is reduced or closed. the routine is to select gear 1 and accelerate to a given speed, close the throttle, let the revs die, then select the next gear, rinse and repeat until required speed or gear is reached. These units were able to coast in gear with closed throttle. I am aware of the gear overspeed situation, but it does not apply in the case of these units because the hydraulic converter only worked in one direction.

Setting the throttle to zero does not disconnect the clutch or allow the RPM to die which is where the error lies.


Just a note........

Voith transmissions a widely used mechanical transmission only has a torque convertor on the 1st speed, the other speeds being standard hydralic couplings that drive in both directions. Also a Voith can be set up to go into neutral on coasting, the ones used in the local (Victoria, Australia) DMU's are set up that way. They also use hydralic retarding when the throttle is closed, the brakes only being used at slow speeds or in emergency's.

Lindsay

#18 User is offline   copperpen 

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Posted 19 February 2014 - 05:13 AM

Matej

Whilst the ORTS code mimics the MSTS behaviour, this is incorrect.

I thought that it was fixed, but the throttle disconnect only happens at very low throttle settings, where it should be at any train speed.

I have been doing a bit of research into the UK system used for first generation diesel mechanical railcars. Between the fluid coupling and the gearbox was a thing called a freewheel. This prevented the gearbox from driving the engine rpm. Therefore it was impossible for the train to drive the rpm as is happening with the current code. It was not possible to correct this in MSTS but with ORTS it is possible.

http://www.railcar.c...heel/index.html

#19 User is offline   BillC 

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Posted 19 February 2014 - 04:15 PM

View Postcopperpen, on 19 February 2014 - 05:13 AM, said:

Matej

Whilst the ORTS code mimics the MSTS behaviour, this is incorrect.

I thought that it was fixed, but the throttle disconnect only happens at very low throttle settings, where it should be at any train speed.

I have been doing a bit of research into the UK system used for first generation diesel mechanical railcars. Between the fluid coupling and the gearbox was a thing called a freewheel. This prevented the gearbox from driving the engine rpm. Therefore it was impossible for the train to drive the rpm as is happening with the current code. It was not possible to correct this in MSTS but with ORTS it is possible.

http://www.railcar.c...heel/index.html


Matej,
I have copied some reply's from the developers form of a thread that you started in July 2011. While these particular replies focused on electrical locomotives and transmission to traction motors. The same issues also apply to mechanical transmission.

Of particular note is Walt's quote " Certainly, none of the MSTS developers forsaw that operation. " The same is true of ORTS developers knowing of every locomotive ever built particular special features, that can be satisfied by a generic controller.

While Walt speaks of a plug-in, perhaps continued development of (TCS) scripting, would better service the diverse interests.

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Matej's original post
Posted 12 July 2011 - 06:15 AM

You may say that one throttle controller is enough. If we want to make OR as universal as possible, we should prepare additional functionality to cover many handling types of locomotives. Thus, there should be another controller for optional control (such as DC traction motor shunting controller for electric locomotives, diesel-mechanical locomotive gear switch, etc.). We can imagine a simplified implementation of multi-supply electric locomotives, dual power or hybrid locomotives, and so on. On some older locos you need to handle compressors, fan, wagon heating, etc. with possible failure when operating wrong way. All this stuff can be used for some kind of driver's evaluation in future.
I propose to create:
  • Shift+D and Shift+A to handle additional power controller for electric locomotives (such as shunt-resistor switch controller)
  • E and Shift+E to handle gear switch up and down (the same key as in MSTS)
  • T and Shift+T to handle wagon heating switch
  • O and Shift+O to handle main switch (electric) or to start and stop the engine (diesel)
  • Z/Y to handle some auxiliaries (i.e. compressor: off-automatic-manual)


This is just a start of a discussion. Not all of the list should be implemented. It is only some kind of vision to the future and may be extended if you know about some other features.
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A reply by Developer WaltN


Posted 13 July 2011 - 04:39 AM

I think there should be some kind of plug-in interface available to handle driver controls. This side-steps the whole issue of whether an Open Rails developer can possibly forsee the set of all possible driver controls.

For example, when I built The Switch Back Route, I faced the problem of how to mimic the remote actions of a stationary steam engine operator. (With a car at the bottom of an inclined plane, the driver signaled an employee, who pulled a wire that ran to the enginehouse at the top of the plane. There, the wire rang a bell, signaling the engineman to engage the transmission.) What I did was use the standard throttle and transmission controls, which ruined the effect of the prototype's remote operation. Certainly, none of the MSTS developers forsaw that operation.

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A reply from Developer Turbo Bill

Posted 29 November 2011 - 04:31 PM

I know I'm stirring up old posts here and there. But I feel we need to consider some other features in regards to gearing etc. Older diesels including up to mid-release of EMD GP/SD-9 actually did not have automatic traction motor phase-change control. The locomotive engineer actually had to manually manipulate between the four phases with a lever that had four quadrants. Just like shifting a car manually w/4 speed transmission. The difference of course being a car had 4 dfferent gear-sets and a road locomotive had 4 different phases that the traction motor used in the way the power was applied to that motor. Even after this action was automated when the system transitioned to that last phase at around 40mph, the prime mover would suddenly really come under load and spew black smoke as the main generator tried to provide the current the traction motors were demanding. As newer models came out these phase transitions became so smooth you didn't see any smoke change or feel any momentum shift.

Mow in regards to all switch engines, they still had a two quadrant electric switch that essentially was a switching mode and road unit mode. In switching mode the automatic phase thingie (sorry, I don't remember what is was called) did not transition out of the first phase so the switcher had maximum torque to move cars around a switch yard. Flip the switch and the unit performed the 4 phase changes automatically like a road unit.

Now I should mention that in multi-unit lash-ups the lead engine manual controls would control all locomotives in the consist that did not have automatic phase shifters. If the lead unit was automatic it would tell all manual phase shift trailing locomotives to make the transition as it did. Now in the case of switchers you had to manually set each switch engine in the consist to either switching mode or road mode.

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#20 User is offline   Matej Pacha 

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Posted 20 February 2014 - 06:28 AM

Guys,

First of all, I'd like to stay calm now about new features like a new controller or including any kind of scripting into physics. We would be overstepping the ORTSv1.0 milestone.
So back to the original:

View Postcopperpen, on 19 February 2014 - 05:13 AM, said:

Matej

Whilst the ORTS code mimics the MSTS behaviour, this is incorrect.

I thought that it was fixed, but the throttle disconnect only happens at very low throttle settings, where it should be at any train speed.

I have been doing a bit of research into the UK system used for first generation diesel mechanical railcars. Between the fluid coupling and the gearbox was a thing called a freewheel. This prevented the gearbox from driving the engine rpm. Therefore it was impossible for the train to drive the rpm as is happening with the current code. It was not possible to correct this in MSTS but with ORTS it is possible.

http://www.railcar.c...heel/index.html


I need a bit more about this. What should happen if (please correct if something is wrong):
  • I gear up one notch - nothing until...
  • I pull up the throttle - the clutch is starting to transmitt some force to the wheels. The higher throttle setting, the higher force to transmitt.
  • the clutch is about to close - the diesel RPM will match the train speed in proportion with the selected gear
  • the clutch is on and I pull down the throttle (not to zero) - the clutch will remain closed and the diesel RPM will follow the train speed (with some braking force in proportion to the throttle setting - not implemented now)
  • the clutch is on and I pull down the throttle to zero - the clutch will open and the diesel RPM will fall to idle. I can switch the gear and pull up the throttle again.
  • the clutch is on, throttle is higher than zero and I gear up by a notch(es) - the clutch will open and the diesel RPM will fall/rise to the speed proportional to the new gear selection. Than the clutch will close again and the engine will follow the train speed.
  • ... (please add some if you have some ideas)


Matej

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